Thorsten Quaas Provides a Global Perspective on the Evolution of Hearing Aid Technology

Thorsten Quaas, Starkey’s VP of European Sales, talks to Dave about his 36 years in the industry, how hearing aid technology has changed during that time, the art of custom devices, and what people outside of the U.S. are looking for from hearing aids.

Link to full transcript

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to Starkey's Town Bites. I'm your host, Dave Fabry, Starkey's Chief Innovation Officer. Our guest today is Torsten Quest, Starkey's Vice President of European Sales. Torsten is based in Germany, where Evolve AI was introduced earlier this spring. He joins us virtually from across the pond to talk about his many years in the hearing industry, uh have influenced his Starkey's business and also the way that new technology is being received around the globe.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Thanks for having me. Uh it's great to meet you again and uh happy to talk with you.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Yeah, it's been a couple years, I think, since uh uh COVID had other plans with uh some of the meetings that I typically get to see you face to face. But uh but it's good to see you at least on the screen, and um we'll look forward to hopefully interacting in person uh sometime this summer, I think, when you'll be coming our way.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Totally. I'm I'm really looking forward to it. It's uh it's it's good to have this opportunity on the camera, but it's uh still a missing point to me personal, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:14

It is indeed. And um, and on the camera for me, I always say I have a face for radio. So uh I'll I could you know for those listening, you're not uh having to see uh the camera view of Torsten and I. But um, you know, I want to begin uh with talking a little bit about your uh joining the hearing industry. How did you decide to go into this discipline and how did you find Starkey? And and just talk a little bit about that journey. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Um yeah, I'm happy to share this. That's uh to be honest, it was really I was looking for a job when I finished the army, and I my my my uh education came from being a radio TV technician. Okay, and Darkey was looking for a job and uh for for a person to repair hearing aids, and I was looking for a job, so I thought, well, uh, I thought hearing aid cannot be so hard to repair as a TV technician. And it was in 1986, so 36 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Wow. And uh in 86 the hearing aids were analog, so they all had a microphone, a receiver, some sort of circuitry and a power supply, but they weren't nearly as sophisticated as what we see today.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Exactly, and that you know it was a three transistor hearing aid. Uh CR, FDR, I mean this kind of circuit boards, and it was technology really basic and easy to work, but the the complexity was in repairing hearing aids without feedback. That was a time when Starkey starts with custom products in Germany.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Yeah, I was gonna say in the late 80s was probably on that time when uh when custom devices were really growing um quite a lot.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

It was a huge gross rate. And that, you know, when I joined Starkey, we had a lot of repairs to uh to deal with. And uh I learned that by the hard way, really, to get used to repair and you know, and find out the the difficulty of repairing in-the-year custom products without having a feedback canceller.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Yeah, yeah. At the time there there was there were analog devices and a feedback canceller at that time was just a high cut, uh, you know, that just that reduced the high frequencies.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Yeah, or you have to grind out the shell and make the more room for the receiver. There was a lot of creativity. And when I started this as a repair tech, you know, and after the first week, I really get this very quickly that uh this is a really interesting job because you know, people need the hearing aid, need the product, and the challenge was to make it work for them. And uh that was kind of a really fantastic way to talk to the customers and understand their challenges and try to help them. And some hearing aids, it took me two hours to get it visel-free, say, without feedback. That was a kind of really interesting uh starting point.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Well, and I think for for a young German man at that time, and when you think about, I know you're uh you're a car fan, and when you think about German, Germany's reputation for manufacturing something that you can make with very precise tolerances that are conforming the same product all the time, making a custom product must have been quite a challenge because people maybe don't realize that on these small custom devices that were really growing in popularity during that time, every ear is different. And the way that the microphone, the circuits, the battery, the receiver uh are placed in that small device in order to make them as small as possible is different. And so sort of a different process than probably what you'd um uh grown up in in the military and also experienced uh in terms of just repeating the same thing for everybody.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

There was uh, you know, there was a you know, it was a great challenge every day with some you you got some new challenges with some new uh hearing aids coming in and and built uh someone wants a bit smaller, someone's a more gain, more more amplification. So that was a uh really interesting and and and good starting point to learn more about uh how you know how individual a hearing aid is for individual patients. Every year it's different, as you said, and it was really, really uh uh a good starting point to learn more about it because I never heard anything about hearing aids at this time. And uh, you know, when we said, okay, we have a huge backlog and try to uh serve some better. Um and uh it was the first day was starting over 12 hours working because we had so much repairs to do. And I thought, well, everyone needed, yeah. So get it done. So that was it.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Uh that was your baptism by fire. And so uh your story is not an unfamiliar one around Starkey, where you began kind of in the proverbial mailroom repairing devices, if you will, and now 36 years later, you're um, you know, the president, vice president of European sales. So that growth trajectory over those years, and and really I know that you wore a lot of different hats over that time.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Yeah, that was uh uh you know, when we say this in 1986, that we start with custom products, and then we we the market exploded on on you know, everyone wants to have an Indie hearing aid, and uh there was a huge market, and it was uh stocking was growing so fast. So we had a new building, and I became production manager, and we grow from 30 people to 240 people in four years.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

In four years, from 30 to 240, yeah, remarkable.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Yeah, and we're gonna have to change the uh the manufacturing process. So when I look back over the 36 years, I you know, I I get always uh new jobs, new hats, new challenges. Uh really interesting to develop uh personally, uh new jobs and new new uh tasks you're gonna have to do. You have to learn a lot of new things. So uh interesting journey, I have to say.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Yeah, and when you when you came on board, as we said in those that that late 1980s, continuing into the 90s, really Starkey, um their growth, that remarkable growth that you just highlighted was really because we were uh developing uh uh smaller, uh high-performance custom devices when the market at the time was predominantly behind-the-ear devices. And so uh what other changes, other than that uh sort of uh growth in the custom area, what other technology changes um have have really stuck out in your mind as been the most significant ones over this 36-year journey?

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Yeah, if you you know, if you go back to the uh when the custom were growing, uh there was always some uh peaks and the industry uh leading some growth as well with new products. And I remember very good when we came out with the first IIC uh the invisible in the canal product. So invisible in the canal product, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

And that was uh 2010, I believe. Right around there, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Yeah, I think yeah, I think that uh but this is there was uh another uh big step. And then of course, before starting with the digital programming and and and things like that, but I think the next big uh game changer was the uh feedback management or the feedback canceller. Yeah. Uh when we came, uh I think the product family was a destiny.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Yeah, so somewhere around between 2005-2007, somewhere in there was when uh I if I'm not mistaken, when Destiny really was a game changer because of that feedback cancellation algorithm. And and what were the reasons that you say that that sticks out in your mind? Why why was that a big deal?

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Well, it wasn't it was a big deal because uh the hearing hearing aid was has been always associated with you know feedback or feedback whistling and challenges, and you know, you know, take the phone there, you can, you know, there was a lot of you know, eyeglasses or wearing a hat or something. Uh power with a little bit more power, it's got difficult to get this free of whistling. So this you know provides a lot of new opportunities, um, and also uh um you know, remote take away this kind of you know, talking about hearing aids or whistling. Are you something beeping? Someone say, Oh, I'm getting it's your hearing aid, right? So this goes away. So it's really I would say it really became a new um good uh advantage uh for the hearing aids itself. So that the hearing aids, it's really become you know much better technology, sound quality, et cetera.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Yeah, I think you're right. For for younger professionals who might be listening to this, they kind of take for granted these days that if you cup your hand over your your ear, you might hear a little bit of feedback, but it's quickly squelched and reduced. That in the old days, I I think the points you make are very important ones. In the old days, number one, stigma was also associated with that person wearing a hearing aid and it was just sort of faintly whistling, or if they went to give a hug or anything like that and it whistled. And that stigmatized the use of hearing aids for many people as something that they really didn't see as a desirable um uh product. And so I think in those early days, in the mid-2000s, when we started to have digitally programmable devices and the first digital devices that were getting well developed, feedback cancellation still was sort of uh gain-dependent reducing the high frequencies was the way that feedback was uh uh prevented, rather than truly canceling that energy without having to affect the high frequency audibility. And then the other way you mentioned already, IICs, the invisible in the canals, became possible because now what plagued you when you were there in the early 80s, feedback by separating the microphone and the receiver from each other didn't really allow those small IICs to be developed to uh to function in someone's ear with anything more than just the very mild degree of hearing loss.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Yeah, absolutely. And and I I put it this way: this made the feedback canceller make the the hearing aid less noticeable as the same thing for other people say, uh same thing, the invisible hearing aids doesn't show or doesn't make it noticeable to others because this is always something the the the people they they don't want to you know really have a hearing aid, they want to have a better hearing, right? Yeah, and and this is what you know uh adds a lot in this kind of uh uh you know development of technology uh to make the hearing aid much more sophisticated and attractive to people, too.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Yeah, and then I would argue that introduction of the feedback cancellation algorithm on the Destiny series in the mid-Os, let's say mid-2000s, um led to uh the development of a product called Zone, and really this explosion of receiver in the canal devices that for the first time prevented, you know, as an audiologist who was working at that time and really sharing this journey with you, but on the professional and service and delivery side, the first words out of my mouth often had to be when fitting a new patient with hearing aids for the first time. Well, you'll get used to the sound of your own voice because it people always complain that they sounded like they were talking in a barrel if we had to plug their ears. And that feedback cancellation really opened the door for receiver in-the-canals and uh behind-the-ear devices, as well as those small invisible-in-the-canal devices, to be able to be delivered, particularly with the open, a big vent uh without having feedback as the result. And that really opened up endless opportunities and possibilities for the products that we see today that still provide a pretty natural uh voice sound quality for my own voice when I'm wearing devices.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Yeah, totally. It's uh you know, it's a change, the opportunities and uh for open fittings and as you said, high frequency for better audibility. I'm you you're a better expert, to be honest, uh on the audio logic, but but uh the the high frequency for audibility is very important. And with a RIC uh in the canal receiver, uh with the RIC products, it was a big improvement for uh these hearing aids because then it becomes a design feature. So it was a zone, we had a new design. And uh by the way, uh the the the very impactful and and uh uh show we had was when you put the zone in a water glass. Yeah, you know, with the water that was completely sealed. Yeah, so it was water protection, and uh that was a kind of uh very, very good uh way to see that you know, not only the improvements was a hearing in canal, also the design improvements. So the hearing aid became more attractive from design point of view as well, when you see this um on your hand, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:58

For sure. And now, you know, I don't think there's any argument that uh hearing aid technology is a high technology industry. And you know, Starkey, of course, is a global manufacturer of hearing instruments, but with regards to the European market, and you know, and I think we look around the world, and and certainly there are similarities around the world. Uh you know, we want everyone who has a hearing loss wants to be able to hear in quiet and noisy listening environments and uh wants to now uh be able to connect to their smartphone, but uh also there are regional differences. And so when you look at the European market, which you're responsible for ultimately, um that what would you say are the table stakes or the expectations from those European countries? And I know if we go more granular, we can even look at differences across those countries, but what would you say are the are the key drivers for um expectations from hearing aid users today?

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Yeah, when you when you look at uh you know from the hearing aid user point of view, it's really sound quality. So sound quality, it's very important to get a natural sound and get a um you know easy to use connectivity becomes a big point as well. I mean, uh because of everyone have a cell phone, it's how easy is that. And you you want to get connected to the cell phone and not take it to the ear, you can have it in your pocket and uh take the phone call directly. So this makes it everything makes it more comfortable. And and I believe that um when you look at um the European landscape saying, well, we have a little bit more portion of um small and and and uh small and invisible um desire in Italy and France, but also um a lot of um uh changes, for example, in the last year when we have the pandemic with all the masks and everyone wants to have a custom product within the ear product because it's much more comfortable to weird than having a mask and then a behind-the-year product. So there is there's a lot of uh need for all styles, I would say. And all styles today carry a lot of uh amazing technology, and it's not just you know, the feedback is done, I would say. We have very robust uh feedback. Now we're gonna focus on on sound quality and and sound and noisy environment, which is the most challenging environment for hearing uh people with uh hearing uh impaired people. So I believe that uh to focus on uh um comfortable uh hearing and a noisy environment and with directional and all the features or the function we can add through the wireless capability, like the um the great thing about the the microphone, the external microphone, the the mobile yeah uh microphone we have.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Whether it's a remote microphone or table mic, when hearing aids alone aren't enough, you know, in those noisy environments, that remote mic is really a game changer.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

It makes it it's totally it's you know, you can even hear better than if you don't have a hearing loss with this device, right? Because in in a really noisy environment, it's it's it's really really, really beneficial.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

And uh Yeah, I always say that to the degree that the hearing loss allows, that remote mic or the table mic really provides uh a superpower to almost enable augmented reality beyond what their normal hearing counterparts may be able to experience in that same noisy environment. That's remarkable to think about since you know the past 30 years.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Especially when you go in a restaurant in the US, which is always noisy, very loud. Yeah, very noisy.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

So that that means you know, you can have a much more uh you know comfortable discussion and and and talk and and listen. And it's it's really you know, what we we're saying about you know effortless listening and you know, effortless connection and better sound audience. I think that this this makes the hearing aid much more um attractive to many people. And if you look at uh if you look at the EuroTrack data, I mean the EMAR attracts a daughter around the world. And if you look at every country, you see the uh the acceptance rate and and the sound quality sticks out, it's getting the satisfaction level of patients increased dramatically.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Yeah, I mean when we look at market track in the US, the satisfaction with hearing aids today is in the high 80, 80 some percent. Is that comparable to Europe? Yeah, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

And and it's it's it's huge improvements year over year. And I I believe that uh if you look at the technology we use today, it's really uh a game changer, uh you know, and it's getting accelerating. So the development cycles are shorter and and and new technologies coming in place, which we never thought about as yeah. Uh look at the connectivity. I mean, uh today we can build the little antenna in the custom product, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

In the small custom products, and and and we have recharge. Chargeable batteries and that direct connection. You know, you talked about that Evolve AI has begun to be introduced in various European nations, and I think it's been very well received in those countries where it's been launched and are being launched. And a large part of this, as you said, is that selection of not having one size fits all or most, and really being able to deliver those small IICs up to a power behind-the-ear device that can meet the needs of any hearing loss for any form factor, those small, custom, and the larger, powerful over-the-ear devices with accessories that directly connect via Bluetooth between the hearing aid and the accessory. And then, as you mentioned, that expectation that regardless of whether someone uses an Android phone or an iPhone, they want the connectivity.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Customer saying, patients saying to customers, whoa, that's a different. We don't ask for it, they just saying it's different.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Yeah, it's coming in in the patients that I still work with patients too, as you know, and and um spontaneously. And the interesting thing for me is that they're saying other voices are crisper, and my voice is more natural. So it's coming really that what I'm hearing from the patients who I'm and I work with very challenging patients because my expectation is they're going to be brutally honest with me because I I require that of them. And they're spontaneously saying they're hearing other voices more clearly, and they also feel their own voice is much more natural. Are you hearing that as well? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Exactly. And and you know, you I'm sure you can explain this better. Why does that happen? Uh but you know, I just take it and say, well, thank you. That's just exactly what we're looking for to make you happy. And uh it's it's it's it's one of the biggest success. So I I can tell you it's you know, uh in some countries we we just double uh our business in the short term.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

It's uh it's amazing. It's it's really great to see. But the other thing is, which is very important, what I want to point out, if you if you look at the new technology, and you you already said this, but we have a wide range of products. So it doesn't matter what style you like to have, what it's the best fit for you, you can get all technology and all price points for your need. You don't have to stick with one older technology or family in a different way. You can really um uh use the evolved product line in all styles, and and and this is uh just great because the sound quality it's in all products uh just great.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because we're particularly proud. Uh the feature uh you mentioned earlier, um, one of the ways that we adapted uh using artificial intelligence and user engagement, really, when we launched Livio Edge AI was to incorporate a feature called Edge Mode, where the individual could go into a challenging environment and double tap and now press a button in the app, and um an acoustic scan is conducted of the environment and the noises and the talker of interest, and it provides additional audibility. One of the things that we did when we were together back in the beginning of 2020, and we launched uh Livio Edge AI was to say use this in noisy listening environments. That was the example we gave. And little did we know how beneficial it would be when you alluded to not only hearing aid users wearing masks and finding the benefits of custom style, but now encountering other people wearing masks. And edge mode really um uh uh provided additional speech audibility, which helped provide more clarity in those very challenging uh listening situations presented by COVID-19 during the pandemic.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Yeah, no, that's absolutely true. I I totally agree. And then if you look at the technology we use today with artificial intelligence, and what you can do with the hearing devices, not just a hearing device, it's a healthy device with you know you can you know really track your your body score and and and brain score. We we know that's connected to uh your brain because you hear not just with ears, with you know, with your brain as well, needs to be stimulated and and and and body, you know. And I see that you know, patients using hearing aid longer time, and and you know it's uh I I strongly believe this is gonna be very supportive for the overall health and and health of hearing. And and it's uh I think the the artificial intelligence, it's the next milestone we put in place as a kind of a game changer, which sometimes needs a little bit of time to receive and understood how beneficial this is for the future and how to use it. But if you look at the fall detection, what a great feature.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Yeah, and now we offer that, as you already mentioned, in uh it started out as just in the premium tiers, but falls, the emotional and monetary cost of falls to society, the societal cost of falls is enormous. And it shouldn't be limited to only those patients who can afford the top-end hearing aids. And so we've been really pleased to deliver that down. Fall detection has probably been one of those features really that employs those sensors that can not only measure your physical activity for walking or exercise or standing, but if you're wearing your devices and happen to suffer a fall, it can alert up to three individuals via a text message, even show them on a map where you were when you fell. And that has provided a lot of peace of mind for family members, even professional caregivers, both in North America and in Europe, I know, because I've we've talked about some of the response that you've heard from that fall detection algorithm.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Yeah, I I I think that's a great benefit. And that's why I'm saying it's the hearing aid today, they they become a multiple uh uh functional device, which you know, I like to repeat what uh Bill Austin always saying. We're connecting people.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

And we're connecting people not just through better hearing, we're connecting people with the newest technology we have available today. It's all the social media thing, you know. You can talk in your phone and you got a transcription mode, and you can you can easy talk with your loves or friends or um on on on WhatsApp or or on the phone and and and video conferencing. That's a lot of things which makes life much more valuable.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

Absolutely. And now that we're come we're emerging, hopefully, um, you know, uh out of the pandemic and um people are going out and and being in those social situations before. We'll take care of them with regards to the directional microphones on the hearing aid and the sound processing in noisy environments. Edge mode can help in those challenging listening situations. The table mic can assist with um those really challenging, noisy situations, as you alluded to. But really it's this social engagement piece that we can display in the app so that the more people wear the hearing aids and the more they're in these social environments again, the more benefit they're receiving and really helping to stave off, and again, I don't want to overstep, but the correlations that we've seen with cognition and the loss of uh of cognitive function, as well as social isolation, depression. I think all of us have had uh, you know, two years to sort of experience that loneliness uh that people with untreated hearing loss feel. And I think delivering that across a greater range of uh pricing tiers is really important because we want to be able to try to help everybody on that journey to health and wellness.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

I totally, totally agree. And uh we talked about game changers, technology. One thing I want to point out is rechargeable.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

Rechargeable, it's you know, we when we look at the market in Europe, we have roughly different, a little bit different in each market, but 67, 70 percent rechargeable stuff.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

And that's only really been in the last few years. It's been phenomenal growth of the rechargeable.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Yeah, it's going fast. But here's our strengths again. If you look at the custom India products, stock really leads away and put this rechargeable technology with uh a custom uh CIC device. This is incredibly successful.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Yeah, and with the expectation that they can use the devices all day and even streaming, as we all have been streaming more, uh they can use the devices for you know 20 hours a day on even those small custom devices without having to recharge. And that is really nothing short of remarkable.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Yeah, and easy to use. You just put what's magnetic in this little case and it works.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

So well, and and before we pat ourselves on the back too much, I mean we still have work to do in the sense that the adoption rate for those who have hearing loss and choose to use amplification in North America is only about a third of the population. So in Europe, I believe it it depends on the country, but it but it's a little bit higher than that because some of the countries have a social benefit for amplification where outside of their taxation structure they don't have to pay for devices. But what is the adoption rate in in uh the EU overall?

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Well, I don't have uh overall in the EU, but uh what is it in the U.S. right now?

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Around 34 percent, one in three, give or take.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Yeah. It's pretty close. I wouldn't say is it?

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Okay, yeah. I know in some of those northern European countries it's a little higher, maybe 41.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

It's forty, it's 40 percent. If you look at the Denmark or or Norway, but there's a different system that uh the reimbursement, uh it's not a reimbursement, it's really an NHS driven system, so that the patients are the same.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

National health system, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

So that's it's a it's a way higher adoption rate, but Germany, France is pretty much equal, and eagle, Italy, and and the UK have another national health system and a private market, so it's a little different. But everywhere, the good thing and the good takeaway is that you can see the adoption rate, it's gonna increase with the satisfaction rate. And um, you know, we have a lot more to say about the hearing aids and and the benefits of the hearing aids. I think this is really driving uh, you know, uh the growth in Europe. And if you look at Europe, do the markets are growing overall in Europe every year seven, six, seven percent. So it's it's it's very strong.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Yeah. And and and and I think you know, the this issue of uh regardless of where we go around the world, showing that stigma is still an issue. I mean, even when we improve and we continue to prove improve accessibility and affordability, the reality is no matter where you are in the world, about half the people or less are doing something about it. And I think, as you said, we're trying to continue to improve the sound quality and speech intelligibility as well as expanding into this health and wellness area to destigmatize the use of hearing aids and destigmatize hearing loss. You talked about the remote microphone as a way of allowing hearing aid users to actually outperform their normal hearing counterparts. But how in in in which markets um uh that that you're responsible for do you see that stigma still is strongest? And and how are we making inroads to that?

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Well, if if I would say I think uh the stigma, it's not in one particular market the strongest. It's pretty much the same in France and Germany. Um but I want to say if if you look at the stigma, how we can overcome the stigma, I want to talk about that a little bit because you can make so much marketing and so much um presentation and everything, but the best thing to overcome the stigma is really when the patient starts talking to other people about how good the hearing aids are. And I'm saying think about it. Every person they get a new hearing aid would bring another person that needs a hearing aid, the world market would be doubled quickly. And and I think um as much more satisfaction we get with the patients, and they experience the benefit, and they talk to others to get a hearing aid because the new technology is so much better. That would overcome the stigma big time.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

Yeah, I I I I I just interject briefly. It's like with my parents, they were were more worried about people seeing a hearing aid and thinking that they were older. My generation, I say I don't care as much about the stigma, but I have want, I want, I want small devices, I want them to be connected, and I want them to do all of the things we've been talking about. So we can overcome that stigma by providing all of these additional features.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Yeah, exactly. And I what when people ask me about stigma, and I say you do, I mean, uh, I say I have one answer, which uh I use all the time. Hearing, yeah, hearing loss or non-treated hearing loss, it's much more visible than any hearing aid we have.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

That's absolutely true. I mean, uh there was the the the advocacy group in the States that would say your hearing loss is more conspicuous than your hearing aid, no matter what size it is. I couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

Exactly. And I and I believe this this level of stress people have with heart of hearing, I mean, it's it's much more than using a hearing aid. So you can have a much better life.

unknown 37:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

Well, now, you know, as we said, you're responsible for um the European market. Um you started, as you alluded earlier in Germany. Um some Americans might not be aware that the biggest industry event uh uh that occurs each year. I know obviously we've had a pause, we've been virtual the last couple years, but I'll hopefully look forward to seeing you this fall at what used to be known as the German Congress and now is the European Congress. Um and and you've been certainly intimately involved in in that Congress. Are they planning a hybrid or face-to-face for this fall, at least as we know it right now?

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Yeah, we had a we had a uh small face-to-face, yeah. We had a face-to-face uh event. And uh we we will have uh, I believe a plan an event uh next time as well on face-to-face. And people are looking forward to uh you know get back to some some sort of normality, say. And I think it's important to um get interactive uh with customers, meeting customers, talking about new new technology, listen what they need, what what what they hear from patients, and what we can do to help them and and and you know get a better understanding of what the market looks like. And I I I as you said the the UHAR, the European Hearing Aid uh Congress say it's it's really international.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

It really is.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Yeah, people coming there. I mean, this is a huge event, and uh that's not you know, it's the majority is from Germany, that's but that's also a very big part of international visitors coming, meeting everywhere. And that makes this Congress so uh interesting because there's a lot of interaction, and everyone, the opinion leaders and the owners and and the employees, everyone is there and talking to each other. There's a lot of sessions, education programs, and the industry meetings itself. It's very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Yeah, I can't wait. Um uh the last time I was there was in 2019, and for those maybe who've never had the opportunity to visit Europe or visit Germany, um, I did uh take the time to go to Bonn, Germany, which uh is known as the birthplace of Beethoven. And they have a large museum there in Bonn that I was able to go to and see even the ear trumpet that he used, because uh, as I think most people are aware, uh Beethoven suffered progressive hearing loss that began in his twenties. And by the time he was in his mid-40s, uh he was pretty much profoundly uh deaf. And uh by the time he wrote his Ninth Symphony, I don't think he could even hear it performed. And so it's it's kind of interesting to think about uh that progression of his loss, and even though I know he spent much of his adulthood in Vienna, um that that his birthplace is in in Germany, and there is a rich heritage of uh hearing research and uh hearing technology development. Um I don't think it's uh an entire coincidence that one of the greatest composers uh in the world um uh was was born uh in Bonn, not far from where the European uh Congress often takes place.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Yeah. I think you know more about the German history than I do, so I'm gonna have to ask you next time where to go.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Well, I gotta study when I come. I w you know I like to uh I like to figure out where I'm going and learn a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

But um I'm learning when I when I read your Facebook text with your posting, so that I said, oh my God, this person is gonna hear that.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Yeah, my my uh my brain is full of useless trivia. But uh well to that end, and and we're almost out of time and we've been talking about hearing, uh I'll quiz you a little bit then on uh as somebody that's been involved in the hearing aid industry for 36 years, and and you talked about focusing with um uh trying to bring better hearing to patients. But uh from you as a personal uh stake, what are um some of your favorite sounds that you like to hear or that you uh have gratitude for your ability to hear well? What are your favorite sounds?

SPEAKER_01 42:29

Favorite sounds?

SPEAKER_00 42:31

Uh the Porsche 911, the one just uh it's that's quite melodic. I I know and I I've seen I've seen and know of your car fancy, so that is a good one.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Well, the you know, uh sound quality, it's really I mean, music, of course. Yes, but if you go into nature, I I do a lot of biking right now. Yeah, that's what I learned when I in the pandemic, so uh I use a lot of bike riding and trails, and when you hear some birds and you know, in a very quiet environment, that's kind of amazing.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

I think it's really amazing. And I think about, you know, now probably the uh the buzzword of the last couple years when we're doing calls like these is you're on mute, you know, and someone starts to talk and they're muted, and we're all very quick to jump in and remind people to unmute their microphone. And yet, because hearing loss often is very insidious and develops very slowly, we're often less quick to think about and appreciate those sounds that we hear. We like quiet, but we don't want to be in a world where we can't appreciate all of those different sounds. And so I think you know, for any individuals listening to this podcast who uh maybe have noticed during the pandemic when they're encountering people wearing face masks uh where they can't lip read as well as they could have, or the sound Sound is softer, or that they've noticed just simply that they're having more difficulty in noisy environments. Getting hearing tests isn't painful, isn't difficult. You can even do it online. And then looking at some of the technologies that you've talked about in the last few minutes here really isn't as threatening maybe as it once was, isn't as challenging. It's still, we can't fix hearing to be 2020, the way vision is uh restored to normal function. But I would say we're coming a lot closer now, every year. And Evolve AI is a great example in comparison to 1986 and with more durable, dependable, and more connected devices than ever.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

Yeah, I would I would add to this, and yeah, I totally agree. Um well if even if you cannot restore the normal hearing 100%, uh but you it's a huge improvement.

unknown 44:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

With hearing aid versus untreated hearing loss. It's a huge improvement. What I hear, what I can notice uh when when I work with people, um, and I I I get really great responses. I just recently fit my mother, and she never wants to have a hearing aid, of course, because she always hears good. Yeah. But then I fit her with the hearing aid, and it makes it makes a big difference. Now we can talk on the phone much easier without less stress and enjoy the phone call much more than you know, repeating or trying to speak louder or things like that. So it's a lot less stress.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Oh, that's that's great to hear that that she's recently been fitted and is doing well, and there's nothing that gets more personal than that than taking the risks to fit your mother because you're never going to be as good with your family. It's always more challenging when you're fitting family members because they're gonna give you the the cold hard facts, and I'm glad that she's doing well.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

And and and and she said, I I want to have an indivisible so she gets this custom, rechargeable, fully featured.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

Oh well, keep me posted on how she does. Any any final words of advice for someone, you know, 36 years really with the same with the same company in different roles, someone considering maybe on the other end of the spectrum, just entering into this field. Any bits of advice or wisdom from the vantage point of someone who's been 36 years in this discipline?

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Yes, I I mean uh very clearly I have to say, when you when you when you go into the business, you have a work with a great purpose to help people. And if you look at why 36 years in Starkey, that's all about people. When I look at Starkey at the culture, there was always it's always a culture of uh uh family, even if it's global big company, it's it's really good. I mean, we know each other so long, and you know it's it's it's so much different to work in this environment. And and the other part of it's you know, I started as repair tech, production manager, managing director, a lot of different roles, a lot of changes. The job was never uh the same, it was always challenging, it was always uh you know great to achieve another step and develop yourself. So I cannot say more than that that you know it was a rocket ride.

SPEAKER_00 47:41

Yep. And you don't ask where to sit, you just hang on and put your seatbelt on. And I'm glad that you've been there for us in Germany and in the European market. And it's just been an absolute pleasure to sit down with you today, and I thank you for taking the time to do so.

SPEAKER_01 47:56

Yeah, thank you very much. Uh, I'm I'm I'm very happy to uh be part of this uh podcast and uh happy to talk to you again.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

We'll look forward to it next time. And to our listeners, thank you for listening to this episode of Starky Sound Bites. If you enjoyed this conversation, please rate and review us on your preferred podcast platform. You can also hit subscribe to be sure you don't miss a single episode. See and hear you next time.